[gatorbait]

Like most of you out there with the 825i, I to would like to lower the rpms of the motor and can't figure out what springs will work better to do this. I have found some info on the factory set up that may help someone on there search for the perfect set up. Chime in if this helps and let us know what works for you.

Factory primary clutch is made by Team Industries

--It is a Team Rapid Response and there are places that sell several different rates of springs

The OEM John Deere spring is M159961 (Black/with almond stripe)
--This crosses over to team p/n 1140-0418 or 210500-042218 which is a 42/204 spring...first number is pretension/second is full shift tension

example:
Pretension: The amount of force the spring takes to compress it to it’s installed length. For our purposes this is the lower of the 2 numbers that the springs will be listed as by the manufacturer. For instance a Polaris Black/Green (now just Black) is 120/340. The 120 number is the Pretension of the spring. For reference the installed length for a Polaris Primary clutch is 2.530”

Full Shift Tension: This is the amount of force the spring takes to collapse it to it’s length at full shift out. This is the second (higher) number listed by the manufacturer on most springs. For Reference the fully compressed length in a Polaris Primary clutch is 1.190”

I have played around with another spring weakening and shortening it slowly and did get it to lower rpms at 30mph by 600rpm but it was so light the belt grabbed at idle.

We may have to change the primary and secondary spring, and weights to achieve the desired outcome but im sure someone out there can help figure this out.

Here are some different part numbers of springs i found
Part #Description

1140-0419
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Silver
MARKETING COLOR: Red/Silver/purple
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 43/189

1140-0420
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Gold
MARKETING COLOR: Red/gold
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 55/188

1140-0421
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Gold
MARKETING COLOR: Red/Gold/Black
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 55/243

1140-0424
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Purple
MARKETING COLOR: Red/purple
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 65/151

1140-0425
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): White
MARKETING COLOR: Red/White/Black
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 65/264

1140-0426
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Green
MARKETING COLOR: Red/green/black
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 75/280

1140-0427
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Silver
MARKETING COLOR: Red/silver/Orange
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 76/166

1140-0428
COLOR: Red
COLOR (SECONDARY): Gold
MARKETING COLOR: Red/gold/Silver
DESCRIPTION: Force Lbs. @ 2.25"-1/141": 105/277

 

[MBDiagMan]

I realize that this is an old thread, but has valuable information.

I am having trouble with my 825i clutch. After revving it up, the primary clutch will not open fully, causing drag on the belt, thus hard shifting. I am considering using a different spring with more installed height pressure, but as near as possible to the open clutch pressure.

I am thinking that there is something binding in the clutch causing this. I have ordered a tool to remove the clutch for disassembly.

Has anyone been through this and repaired one of these clutches?

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[dane]

Unfortunately I've been into the drive clutch several times. Below is a simple trick I did using some threaded rod to allow me to easily swap springs and re-assemble the clutch while still on the machine.

You can use a long bar or large washers so the nuts are above the fins where they are easier to tighten. It would work better with three threaded rods since two can not be directly across from each other so I tighten each nut a bit then give the top plate a little tap to get it to square up. You just have to get it in far enough for the bolts to grab then you can get rid of the threaded rod and just tighten the six face place bolts.

----
When you remove the six bolts holding the face plate on you're faced with this:

As you can tell by the plain and cooling fin face plate I have more than one clutch for my Gator.

In this photo you can see one of the three weights lying flat. This is how they will sit when the engine is off or at idle.

As the engine rpm's increase the weights get flung outward and stand up pushing against the face plate you just removed and shoving the movable side of the pulley toward the center of the clutch.

All parts of the clutch should slide smoothly so look for burrs, scratches or gouges that could be causing yours to bind. Do not lubricate anything. It will only attract dirt and make things worse.

When reassembling the ONE IMPORTANT THING to remember and notice are the "X" marks on one clutch spider arm and the face plate. Put it back together with the X's on top of each other.

---
When I was playing with springs I had best results going with a stronger spring (thicker wire) but shorter in overall height. The shorter, fatter spring I choose has more force when only slightly compressed to insure there is a lot of force to open up the clutch plates and release the belt.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Dane,

Thanks very much for the information.

Your clutch looks like it comes apart slightly different from mine, but it is still all excellent information. Mine has one bolt in the middle of the fan, then the fan comes off. I have a puller tool coming and was planning on disassembling on the bench. From what I've learned, including from your post, I expect to find something burred up or otherwise not working smoothly.

Where did you get the springs that you experimented with?

Also, I see that you have a TEAM clutch. Is it a higher quality unit Than the JD original?

I will post progress and results as I move along with it.

Thanks again,
Doc

 

[dane]

Many golf cart clutches also just have the one bolt in the center. I suppose the bolted on face plate is that the clutch stays together as an assembly even when off the vehicle. One center bolt may make it easier to compress the spring during re-assembly.

I don't know how long Team has been providing the clutches for Deere but it's been many years and it's quite possible that you're came from them as well. Team Aftermarket has springs available. If you search the web some resellers spring charts which for some reason Team doesn't have on their site.

Be aware that Team's OEM and aftermarket businesses are pretty separate and they have a non-compete contract with Deere. So, the minute you say you're looking for parts for your Gator that will be then end of the conversation. You may need to approach it by saying "I have a spring x high, y diameter with z diameter wire what is the next heavier spring".

 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks again Dane! That is even more useful information. I found the table on the team site with the spring pressures. I just thought you had a more generic spring source.

I am hoping to see the tool on the brown truck today or tomorrow. If so, i will pull and disassemble the clutch tomorrow night and see where I am at. From what have reD and learned from you and others, I expect to find a burr or something binding things up. If I do I will smooth it out and select a stronger spring and reassemble. Do you think that shimming the spring might produce results?

I will report back here with the results. It might take a while to get a spring and finish the project.

 

[jtmcclanahan]

I have replace the clutch by warranty twice and not trring to get the alternator off my 825i. I have the part loose with all bolts removed but not enough clearance to just drop it down. Any ideas of what else needs to be removed to do the R&R?

 

[MBDiagMan]

JT,

I have an electronic copy of the factory manual and tried to print the pages regarding the alternator R&R. Somehow it would not let me break out those three pages. Maybe adobe somehow honors the copyright or something.

Anyway, you won't like what I'm about to tell you. The manual calls for removal of a prop shaft and the forward gearbox from the transmission.

Looks like some engineer got a raise for making a common operation very difficult.

Sorry for the bad news. Please post what you find as you go through this.

 

[hypnausea]

This thread has to be one the the most valuable to me, my 10 month old 825i is going into the shop for a new clutch (thankfully warranted) sometime this week. Only 64.4 miles and 18.1 hours on it... I've never worked on a clutch in my life but thank you Dane! With those pics I understand the mechanics of one now (or at least this one) enough to have confidence that if it breaks on me again, I MIGHT just be able to fix it myself.

My issue was that after warming up it would become VERY difficult to shift, actually impossible without shutting down and in some cases letting it cool... Checked linkages, RPMs and fluids, all good. Went to the dealer yesterday and said "having trouble shifting after warming up", didn't have to say anything else, service manager said "we'll call you from the road and pick it up this week". He explained to me that it's been something he's been dealing with and said he thinks deere recognizes that there is an issue and has been fixing SOME even out of warranty and picking up the costs.

I'm very pleased with my dealer so far. I just hope that it doesn't happen again after they replace the clutch, belt and clutch center bolt (as he told me). I saw a post about lowering RPMs @ engagement and thereby noise by changing weights out from the 825i stock to the ones in an 855d (grind 1/4 inch off ends). I discussed it with the service manager and he not only confirmed it would work, said he's actually done it to 2 machines himself. Told him I wouldn't try it myself till my warranty was up tho.

The post didn't mention anything about changing the spring tho... If I understand the pics and concept correctly, increasing the weights to lower the point of engaging the clutch would be counteracted by putting a heavier spring in place wouldn't it? Also since the problem I'm having (I think) is that the clutch isn't disengaging, I would think just a heavier spring would help, but heavier weights would make it worse....???

Here's a pic I got for those heavier weights sometime back, I didn't snap the image or edit it, just downloaded it from the post at the time.

Thanks for the info!

 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks very much for the valuable addition to the thread hyp!

What do the red letters on the sides of the weight say? I can't read them on my monitor, even with a magnifying glass.

What post did you get the picture from? Was it on this forum? It sounds like it might be some valuable information to add to this thread.

Thanks again,

 

[hypnausea]

The top weight has the part number on it (AM140452) and is the one for the 855d and also says .4 Lbs as well as showing the .250 inches ground off.

the bottom is the original weight from an 825i and only has .2 Lbs written on it.

the thread is
http://www.gatorforums.net/forum/gator-performance-modifications/960-825i-transmission-solution.html

page 2 has the image by arzdog but the whole thread has a bunch of info. from swapping clutch assemblies to weight changes to exhausts... bunch of stuff.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Thanks very much for taking time to post the link. Great information.

To respond to your comment regarding the heavy weight counteracting the spring, I had the very same thought at first. What I THINK makes the difference is that the diesel weight is not only heavier, but has a different profile on the cam surface. I have not thought through the profile effect, but I think it is key.

My removal tool has been delayed in shipment, but when I get it and disassemble the clutch, I think I am going to order the weights and spring and trim and balance the weights and give it a go.

Forums like this are invaluable when there are members willing to take the time to help each other and share information. Complements to all!

 

[hypnausea]

Kinda wondered if the shape of the weight had something to do with it... Not quite a geometry wizard.

<------ Triangle, <----- Circle,

<----- Thumb! Yep my limit's been reached.

Let us know if u go thru with the weight/spring change and how it goes.

UPS late with your stuff too? Waiting on something myself, was supposed to be today, now they're saying a late arrival truck has caused delays, blah blah blah.

 

[MBDiagMan]

UPS sent my puller tool to the wrong post office. Post office? Why does UPS have to use the post office. I use UPS so that I don't HAVE to use the post office. Oh well.

Well I went ahead and got the diesel weights and spring coming this way, so I guess I get to watch that get stuck in shipping too.

With the tool being late, I probably won't get to it until next week anyway. We are having a little get together of old Army buddies this weekend. One of them I haven't seen in 44 years and he is one of my favorite people of all folks I've ever known. Should be a great weekend, but not conducive to getting the Gator back to work.

I am expecting to find a burr or something hanging up the clutch, keeping it from releasing the belt. If I can fix that and get the weights to engage the clutch at a lower RPM in the bargain, it will be worth the time and trouble.

This is turning into a valuable thread since it has good information PLUS a link to another related and valuable thread. I will post results of what I find, and if I can remember to take some pictures, I'll add those too. Problem is, my shop looks like it's been through a tornado, so I'm embarrassed to post pictures that might have my messes in the background.

Thanks again to all for the great information.

 

[MBDiagMan]

While I'm posting amongst those with clutch experience:

The manual says to remove the secondary clutch to get the belt off. A TEAM video that I came across somewhere, made it look like they just pulled the primary clutch and the belt came off without having to fool with the secondary clutch.

Any experience with this anyone?

 

[jtmcclanahan]

gator alternator

Thanks for the info. I will look at this again and see if I can do this simple (used to be) job with tools I have.

JT,

I have an electronic copy of the factory manual and tried to print the pages regarding the alternator R&R. Somehow it would not let me break out those three pages. Maybe adobe somehow honors the copyright or something.

Anyway, you won't like what I'm about to tell you. The manual calls for removal of a prop shaft and the forward gearbox from the transmission.

Looks like some engineer got a raise for making a common operation very difficult.

Sorry for the bad news. Please post what you find as you go through this.

 

[dane]

UPS delivering to the Post Office is not a UPS thing. It's the shipper selecting that class (really cheap) service. What's annoying is the UPS tracking system only shows the UPS portion so it will say delivered but that only means delivered to the Post Office.

--
Removing both clutches is not needed at least on my machine. I put the transmission in neutral and get part of the belt up onto the side of the driven pulley plate. Hold the belt so it doesn't slide off the pulley and rotate the clutch to walk the belt up onto and off the pulley. The reverse can be done to put it back on.

 

[MBDiagMan]

Well, I got in this afternoon to find the tool on the porch. I pulled the clutch and did indeed find that there is no need to pull the secondary clutch in order to deal with the belt. Tool worked fine, clutch out, easy peasy.

Now to the bad part. The clutch looks like brand new, which it is with probably less than ten hours, EXCEPT it does NOT slide freely on the shaft. In fact it's so tight I don't know how it was working at all. It is so tight that it squeaks when forcing it open and closed.

The JD house at this point replaces the clutch, but Doc doesn't give up that easy. I want to get or make a spanner to get it completely apart and hone it slightly, polish it and see if I can make it work again. Anyone have any experience or thoughts about this?

Thanks for all your help and I'll keep you posted.

BTW, when they replaced the clutch under warranty they asked me if I had pulled anything heavy or driven it hard. I pulled a small chain link kennel about 30 feet with it, but other Han that it has lived a super easy life. Are these things really that delicate?

 

[hypnausea]

MB, don't get me started with the UPS smart post thing... I work for USPS and believe me it doesn't take a 3rd grade education to see why the gov bleeds money like a stuck pig! I constantly make the joke that I'm the last fiscal libertarian to work for the government...

Anyway as for the tightness issue, I have no idea where I read this but somewhere I saw that there MIGHT be a JD service bulletin about buffing or lightly polishing the inside of the clutch part that does the sliding... (sorry I have no idea what its really called) If yours is just hanging up like that I can bet that's what mine is doing too. I'll bet that disassembling it and polishing the inner wall and the shaft (sleeve?) that it rides on when sliding would do the trick! At least for fixing the hang up... As far as high RPM engagement I would say for certain, heavier weights.

Have a blast with the Army buds! Absolutely nothing but the highest respect for armed forces service members!!!!!!!!! Just like the bumper sticker says "If you can read this, thank a teacher. If it's in English thank a VET!".

 

[MBDiagMan]

Hyp,

I worked for the post office in 1975 as an electronic technician in a bulk mail facility. It didn't take me long to figure out that it wasn't for me.

I went back to the shop for a little while and made a template of what I need to cut for the spanner. I will cut a triangle sort of piece, then weld on sides, then weld a large 1/2" socket to the top. Then I will have to make a plate that I can chuck in a vise with a series of pins to hold the bottom while I turn the top.

I saw a TEAM video that shows heating the center piece in order to break the loctite for removal. Once it's apart, I am quite sure that I can use a brake hone until it slides and then figure a way to polish it.

We are having a get together since one of the other guys has stage four cancer. He was drenched with agent orange, has cancer all over his body, and he's in a bad way. He's a double Purple Heart, highly decorated hero. He wanted a plane ride, so I flew him all around lake Texoma, where he has fished for many years. He loved it. His condition prompted me to find the local guys and get us altogether. I figure that all this is the least I can do. So, the clutch tools will have to wait until after the get together.