Sounds like the primary is not fully releasing the belt. Possibly the new belt is slightly wider or shorter? I wonder if there is some type of bulletin on this? Maybe Seth will know.

 

You may well be right about the clutch. I did measure the width of both belts with a vernier caliper. New one is 1 mm (0.04") wider is all, and both appear to be identical lengths.

I have the Technical Manual for the 560E, but it maddenly says nothing about the clutch. There's more in the User Manual, but not enough to diagnose the source of the noise. Google A.I. says clutch can be lubricated, but I have no idea how, where, or what type of lube to use. That might rule out at least one cause.

I suspect that the difficulty getting in and out of gear means something, but I'm unsure what. Could it mean the clutch isn't properly adjusted? If so, how to go about that, I wonder?

 

I think not going in or out of gear is an indication the clutch is not releasing the belt. Also the clutches tun dry. Do not use a lubricant.

 

OK, no lubricant. Good. That's one factor eliminated.

I wish I knew exactly how this particular CVT operates. I know the basics, but not the specifics. So, when you say "releasing the belt" I don't fully have a picture in my mind of what's going on. I do know that, as the two angled plates of one set get closer together, the plates of the other set get farther apart, and that's what creates the "gear ratio", but without any true gears with teeth on them, just the drive belt riding on the angled surfaces of the plates.

So, are you saying it might be a case of one set of plates failing to open as the other set close, or vice versa?

Do you know if these things have throwout bearings?

I appreciate the input. It's not easy to "think like a machine", is it.

 

No throw out bearing.

The primary uses weights to move the primary pulleys together as engine rpm increases. There’s a return spring counter this force to open the pulleys back up when engine speed decreases. If there is too much friction the clutch may not return to its full open position and allow the clutch to maintain contact with belt.

Don’t trust they put the correct belt on. Check the illustrated parts diagram yourself paying attention to any serial number breaks.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/

Are you certain the pulley are opening completely? There should be a gap between primary pulleys and belt.

Team Industries has a good video explaining how they work. Suggest searching and watching.

added in edit:

 

The primary uses weights to move the primary pulleys together as engine rpm increases. There’s a return spring counter this force to open the pulleys back up when engine speed decreases. If there is too much friction the clutch may not return to its full open position and allow the clutch to maintain contact with belt.

Don’t trust they put the correct belt on. Check the illustrated parts diagram yourself paying attention to any serial number breaks.

Are you certain the pulley are opening completely? There should be a gap between primary pulleys and belt.

Team Industries has a good video explaining how they work. Suggest searching and watching.

Thanks, 200mph. You're a national treasure.

Excellent video. Thanks. That helps me to understand what's going on inside a CVT. It's complicated!

OK, so let's go down the list. First, the belt. I did try to do my "due diligence," and had double-checked the dealer's choice of "UC29593," which the JD Web site, as well as various vendors, had said was the correct belt for my 560E, PIN 1M0560EAVJM011358, and this is consistent with the URL above you gave me, which leads to this part substitution, which all checks out to be correct. So, we have the right drive belt.

Second, you mention a gap between the primary pulleys and the belt. I'm not quite sure what that means. Here's a picture of both pulleys when shifter's in neutral:

It doesn't squeal in neutral, though, only in H,L, or R. Putting it in one of those results in a picture just the same at low RPM, except that primary clutch rotates, secondary doesn't, and it shrieks. Unfortunately, I cant get a shot under load to show you, which probably would be helpful. All I can say is that I can't see any broken springs, or anything obvious going on.

 

Answered below is the more than likely suspect is that the belt may have been ruined by installing it and running it backwards... Also down below it says primary clutch was installed backwards... I'd take advantage of the "John Deere Platinum" If they didn't want to honor their work then let Deere know the circumstances and have them get involved... It is their name the Dealership represents... Now as far as technicalities: I work for the dealership as an Ag and Turf Technician or "Consumer Products Technician" is my job title according to Pape... Not all technicians are equally smart and or use the training to better the experience for the end user... Myself I did... When it came to class I did things the way Deere wanted us to and used their training to do the final tests to figure out the bugs they'd use to create the problems on the products they tested us on to make the repair... Other techs in the class just slept through it and let the instructor hold their hand and wald them through it... Some just were there and acted as if they knew it all... Some just went out and looked for the bugs... Even some were there to just get the certificate so they could go work for the C&F side of the company because it is supposedly more glamorous... The reason I mention this is because if you got an otherwise "entry level" tech working on your unit or one who just didn't care then that is the level of work that got accomplished on your unit...

 

Thanks, sethpayment79. You're another national treasure.

I've inspected the "old-new" belt the dealer installed. Oddly, other than a tiny bit of wear on the angled surfaces it doesn't look much different than the new one I just put on.

I'm slightly confused about primary clutch being installed backwards. How would I tell, and how would that even be possible? I'd think their engineers would've designed that to make it foolproof. Of course, there's no telling what fools are all involved here, is there...

I hear you totally on mechanic training. The guy who came out to my place to fix the belt was the normal guy who works on these, and he told me he was out on vacation when my machine came in, so another guy worked on it. So, there's your "entry level tech" at work. Maybe the guy's fantastic at $250,000 tractors, I don't know. But, they sure don't seem to give much of a hoot when it comes to entry-level UTVs. Part of me can understand that, while the rest of me thinks “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ "

Oh, well. Nobody said life was going to be fair...

 

I bought an 835R with a “bad” engine. Very big dealer had diagnosed it and said “piston to cylinder clearance exceeds limits needs a new engine”. I’ve wondered how they determined that when they never removed the pistons. I removed the pistons and everything measured new. A couple of hundred in Chinese parts and a completely serviced head and it runs like new. Very poor diagnostics by that dealer.

 

Wow, that's cray-cray. I can see something like that coming after a compression check, but "needs new engine", no Sir. Just smooth out the liners and use oversized piston rings. Maybe that was their "solution" to all engines with compression problems? "Hey -- your ashtray's full. You need a new car !"

 

Typically the belt won’t make noise in neutral because the secondary is likely rotating along with the belt.

In gear make certain the pulleys have clearance with belt. If so the ID or bottom portion of the belt must be too tight with the clutch shaft. If it is too tight the distance between primary and secondary is too long.

With engine off the belt typically has some slack. It will be squeezed by the secondary but there should be some play at the primary.

Understanding which belt surface is dragging and thus squealing will narrow down the possibilities.

 

I just now checked.With engine on, In neutral, the secondary is stationary, primary is rotating. No noise.

In gear, both primary & secondary are rotating & it shrieks.

With engine off belt has approx 1" deflection and primary pulleys are far apart, not touching the belt at all.

I wonder if I can remove the belt, start the engine, and see if it squeals w no belt on at all. What do you think?

 

I’m wondering if it isn’t something else making the noise.

It worth a try without belt but I’d be gradual on increasing rpm’s since there is no belt force to keep pulley from moving out instantaneously.

A stethoscope can be very helpful in identifying audible noise sources but need to be cautious when using a ith rotating parts. They are under $10.

Example from harbor freight

 

I’m wondering if it isn’t something else making the noise.

It worth a try without belt but I’d be gradual on increasing rpm’s since there is no belt force to keep pulley from moving out instantaneously.

A stethoscope can be very helpful in identifying audible noise sources but need to be cautious when using a ith rotating parts. They are under $10.

Good idea. I ordered a 'scope. Have to spray thistles today. Will get on removing the belt tomorrow & report off.

 

That's quite a story. Esp. since parts are so expensive these days. I have a Mazda Miata whose central computer went out, and threw incorrect OBDII codes, leading to my changing cam sensor, crank sensor, fuel pump -- all unnecessarily. Before that, a wood rat built a nest in my other tractor. Wiring harnesses -- $2 grand, just for the parts alone. So, you've got my empathy, brother.

Question for you: Right now I have the new belt on, and the machine howls, but I can't quite place the origin of the sound. I.e., is it the belt itself, or the clutch/primary pulley, or the secondary pulley? If I removed the belt, and tried starting the engine, the clutch/primary should rotate, shouldn't it? And, if it's the clutch/primary making all the noise, then that should be obvious, because the belt's now gone, and the secondary pully won't rotate, right? At least, I'd be one step closer to knowing where the problem is.

The only thing I'd have to take into account, if memory serves, is that shifting seems to be impossible when the belt's off. I think that's right, although I have no idea why. So, I reckon I'd have to make sure we were in gear before removing the belt. And, that might make removing the belt difficult, I'm unsure. If all that's true, then Zeus and all the gods on Mt. Olympus have decided to conspire against me !

That's quite a story. Esp. since parts are so expensive these days. I have a Mazda Miata whose central computer went out, and threw incorrect OBDII codes, leading to my changing cam sensor, crank sensor, fuel pump -- all unnecessarily. Before that, a wood rat built a nest in my other tractor. Wiring harnesses -- $2 grand, just for the parts alone. So, you've got my empathy, brother.

Question for you: Right now I have the new belt on, and the machine howls, but I can't quite place the origin of the sound. I.e., is it the belt itself, or the clutch/primary pulley, or the secondary pulley? If I removed the belt, and tried starting the engine, the clutch/primary should rotate, shouldn't it? And, if it's the clutch/primary making all the noise, then that should be obvious, because the belt's now gone, and the secondary pully won't rotate, right? At least, I'd be one step closer to knowing where the problem is.

The only thing I'd have to take into account, if memory serves, is that shifting seems to be impossible when the belt's off. I think that's right, although I have no idea why. So, I reckon I'd have to make sure we were in gear before removing the belt. And, that might make removing the belt difficult, I'm unsure. If all that's true, then Zeus and all the gods on Mt. Olympus have decided to conspire against me !

If the thing has an interlock shifter and requires brake be depressed (some models do) then yes you'd be likely not able to shift it easily unless you could reach the secondary clutch and spin it as you were shifting it to whatever speed... The rotation of the shaft makes it so when it able to drop into gear easily as the shaft had splined collars that connect the shaft to the gears depending on which mode you select. Yes you should be able to remove the belt and not hear the squeak... That is if it is the clutch belt... I can't remember which one utilizes the 2 cylinder Cheri car engine but if you have that one they have 2 other belts: Timing belt and alternator / water pump drive belts... When I'm diagnosing a noise I use something called an Ultrasonic Listening Ear... It is one of the only ways to find a interior squeak or an air leak on the cab of a truck or car... Yes the primary clutch rotates with or without belt... Secondary clutch only rotates with belt driving it or transmission on gear with someone towing it with no belt attached. If you take the belt off and start it and sound disappears then you have found the source... You can also use soapy water by spraying it while it is running and listening to see if the noise changes... Also will with the drive belt off you can turn the secondary clutch pulley and see if the sound is slightly present with everything off to see if you hear something similar... It so then you may have also found the cause...

 

This is a roadmap to diagnosis, and I'm going to follow it.

Mine is the air-cooled 570 cc V-twin engine.

 

So that means no alternator belt... Unless it has the high amperage charging system add on...

 

Correct. I can't see how it generates current to recharge the battery. I'd figured that was hidden somewhere inside the shroud around the engine, but that was just a guess.

Am going out now to see if it's the belt that's squealing.

 

Our household has given Pape a LOT of money for equipment. Every dealing has been fantastic. But if I ever needed a tech I do cringe because of what Seth said. If our big machine needed service I would lean to an on-site visit if at all possible. Field service guys are not rinky-dinks or they wouldn't have the job long. Besides, Pape green or yellow dealers are hours away in different directions.

As to the thread, CVT drives get sooo muucch talk. Both in theory and operation they are really pretty darn simple devices compared to a gear box. There are few problem areas and a skilled tech should be able to ID the problem in a pretty short time. Idle RPM, front assy opening completely (and consistently) at idle, correct belt width and length and orientation, alignment, dust/shavings or other indications of the problem, normal wear and tear....

The mention of the squeal coming from another area is interesting. But the difficulty in putting in or taking out of gear is 1st to be solved. That will lead to bigger repairs if not addressed.

 

We have some great field service guys... Most of them know enough to not put a belt on backwards or skim on something to make the job easier...

 

OK, boys & girls: Buckle up, cause here we go.

With new drive belt on, I put it in "H" & it howled. Then, I squirted soapy water on the belt right where it curves around the central shaft of the primary pulley -- shrieking stopped. After about 10 seconds, it started up again.

Then, as a further test, I removed the new drive belt. However -- and I don't know why -- the only gear it would go into, other than neutral, was reverse. Nonetheless, whereas it USED to squeal in R -- it now did NOT.

Oh, and hand-rotating the secondary pulley produces no sound that I can hear.

So, what do y'all think? A pulley alignment issue? The trouble with that hypothesis is that it howls in gear even when the primary is spaced as in that photo I showed earlier, i.e., not even touching the belt except at its central shaft, which is about 1" in diameter, so, only that central shaft would be rubbing against the belt. And, when I squirted soapy water on it there, the squealing stopped.

Doesn't this almost sound as if the belt is ever-so-slightly too short (or the internal ribs are ever-so-slightly too long), and those internal ribs are just rubbing against the central shaft of the primary pulley, which only spins when in gear?

OMG...get a load of this! The replacement belt turns out to be 0.2" SHORTER than the original!!! Everywhere I looked said they were IDENTICAL until this. Have we found our culprit, and is John Deere to blame?

OEM: part no. M176720 effective length 45.6", substitute part no. UC29593 effective length 45.4"


The specs on the replacement belt () do NOT specify how deep those internal ribs are, btw.

 

If this is truly what's going on, should I just put everything back together, tolerate the squeal, and drive 'er hard for a while, to stretch the belt out a tiny bit?

Oh, and if it finally fixes itself -- write a scathing letter to the president of John Deere?

 

I’m not familiar with the setup but is it possible to shift engine towards the primary a slight amount? This would compensate for the slightly shorter belt.

Another option would be to shim the secondary so the pulleys aren’t so close when off or at idle. This would keep the belt slightly lower within pulley and thus effectively longer. Not certain if this is possible but this has been done with other CVT setups.

 

How in the world did you measure the belt to within .2"? Or you are going off some part number nomenclature?

If at idle the shives of the drive pulley are NOT grabbing the belt and the center shaft of the drive is letting the belt do nothing but sit there still with the belt on it and everything spinning around it, what's the problem? Way too many brain cells being put into this issue. Maybe send all the stuff to the Clutch Doctor. It'll probably come back better than stock anyway esp if you tell him how you use the machine. No need to confuse this further with moving major components closer or further apart.

And all this started after a blown head gasket and bent push rods? That's kind of weird. There is something else to this story me thinks. How in the world did that engine malfunction happen? It might be relevant.

 

200mph is correct. I got the belt lengths off Internet specs. The issue is that some vendors, even JD, are claiming those specs to be identical for the original belt (see part #9) vs the substitution belt, and that's apparently wrong, with the sub being 0.2" shorter.

This place says substitute is 0.2" shorter. And, they're all JD.

 

@Jrhill likely got the dimensions from the parts listing. See below

Not that it matters but wonder what the manufacturing tolerance is for length.

The OP’s description makes it sound like the belt is too tight on the inner primary shaft. Enough force to cause the belt to squeal. He sprayed soap-water solution to underside of belt and the noise ceased for a short period of time.

 

OK, thanks. I remember the other thread on this now.

 

OK, folks. It's Decision Time. Here's what I'm going to do: Amazon sells this belt, and tells me its length is essentially the same as the OEM M176720 original belt that worked fine. I just ordered one & it's scheduled to get here in 5 days. I'll then test to see whether the Real Culprit here is this 0.2" length difference we've been discussing.

If that's what it all turns out to be, provided I can find a good address, I'll mail my two useless UC29593 belts to John Deere, along with just about the most scathing letter you've ever seen in your born days, asking for a refund, and please to give me back the 50-or-so hours of my life that I've spent working on this bloody problem.

If the new belt DOESN'T solve the problem, then I reckon the only thing to do is throw the machine into neutral every time I stop. There's no sense going totally nuts over this. Sending it back to the dealer would probably be a fool's errand. Because each of you guys here probably has 30 IQ points and years more experience than the guys working at the dealer. So, if we all collectively couldn't figure this out, then what are the odds the dealer could? And, all they'd be likely to do is tell me I needed a new engine, or something costing half what a new vehicle would cost. I mean, it's one thing to become sort of entranced by a problem, and want to figure it out & fix it, right? But, it's another thing to get obsessed with a problem that has a solution that's kind of a PIA, but at least works. And, I don't want to take too much of y'all's time over all this. All of y'all have been really, really good to me in spending this much time already.

So... onward & upward! I'll report off when the new belt arrives. Stay tuned. And, everyone here has my profound and absolute respect and gratitude. This forum, and you on it, are truly a national treasure.

 

Snip>>
If the new belt DOESN'T solve the problem, then I reckon the only thing to do is throw the machine into neutral every time I stop. <<Snip

Hmmm... I have always switched into neutral when stopped. Just figured it would be better on the primary clutch not to have to set there and slip while I play Thistle sprayer dude or Fire Ant assassin. Perhaps it won't cause any wear but I'd rather not find out the hard or expensive way...

 

You've certainly been through a lot with this machine.

 

Yes, Sir, I have. It also got mouse nests in it, early on, one by the carburetor, and one that crawled down that long tube leading to the air filter (I had to fashion a hardware-cloth screen to go on the entrance to that tube -- something JD should've thought of and done as OEM). Now, whenever I park it, I keep a plastic bottle with cotton soaked in peppermint oil down by where the dipstick is, plus one in the glove compartment.

When the time comes, I doubt I'll ever replace this machine with another JD. Locals here in Central OK seem to all drive Kawasakis.

 

OK, boys & girls: Buckle up, cause here we go.

With new drive belt on, I put it in "H" & it howled. Then, I squirted soapy water on the belt right where it curves around the central shaft of the primary pulley -- shrieking stopped. After about 10 seconds, it started up again.

Then, as a further test, I removed the new drive belt. However -- and I don't know why -- the only gear it would go into, other than neutral, was reverse. Nonetheless, whereas it USED to squeal in R -- it now did NOT.

Oh, and hand-rotating the secondary pulley produces no sound that I can hear.

So, what do y'all think? A pulley alignment issue? The trouble with that hypothesis is that it howls in gear even when the primary is spaced as in that photo I showed earlier, i.e., not even touching the belt except at its central shaft, which is about 1" in diameter, so, only that central shaft would be rubbing against the belt. And, when I squirted soapy water on it there, the squealing stopped.

Doesn't this almost sound as if the belt is ever-so-slightly too short (or the internal ribs are ever-so-slightly too long), and those internal ribs are just rubbing against the central shaft of the primary pulley, which only spins when in gear?

OMG...get a load of this! The replacement belt turns out to be 0.2" SHORTER than the original!!! Everywhere I looked said they were IDENTICAL until this. Have we found our culprit, and is John Deere to blame?

OEM: part no. M176720 effective length 45.6", substitute part no. UC29593 effective length 45.4"


The specs on the replacement belt () do NOT specify how deep those internal ribs are, btw.

I don't think you have a pulley alignment issue...

Hi. The engine problem happened while I was going up a short-but-steep hill on my place. I'd gone up this hill many times w/o trouble. But, this particular time I could hear the engine straining, as if the CVT wasn't downshifting to meet the increased torque load. Then, when I got to the top of the little hill, the engine just died & wouldn't restart. And, according to the dealer who repaired it all, the pushrods were bent and the head gasket was blown.

The head gasket I could understand. But, this was the second time the dealer told me I had bent pushrods. The first time was years ago when the engine started dieseling at shutoff. And, both those reports always seemed suspicious to me, given that pushrods normally simply get pushed by the cams on a camshaft, and then transmit that force upward to the valves at the top of the cylinder -- so what's to cause them to bend, I wondered? If the valves somehow got frozen, yeah, sure. But, it's not like valves weigh a lot, or somebody suddenly jammed a wrench into the rocker. In other words, the dealer's report of "bent pushrods" always seemed suspicious to me.

Some of the Kawasaki V-twin engines used in Gators have a fiber timing gear in them... You may want to verify if your unit has one and if it isn't jumping out of time... To start to struggle and then just bend the pushrods sounds like the gear might me out of time and or damaged... I have seen these now twice do this... Also... How did they verify the head gasket was blown? Did they do a dye test on it or just decide it was blown? Dye test definition is the following: drain some coolant off slightly, use sniffer tool and insert into radiator and if blown when the exhaust reacts with dye in sniffer tool it will turn yellow... If it is an air cooled engine then a leak down test should be performed and engine should be listened to around base of cylinder head... If possible a smoke machine can be used as well... If smoke starts rolling out at the base of cylinder heads and or with rocker cover removed and oil filter removed the smoke rolls out of oil drain backs then a head gasket blown between the drain back galleries... If the smoke rolls out of the center where the oil filter is threaded on them the head gasket is blown between combustion chamber and the valve train lubrication galleries...

 

I don't think you have a pulley alignment issue...

Some of the Kawasaki V-twin engines used in Gators have a fiber timing gear in them... You may want to verify if your unit has one and if it isn't jumping out of time... To start to struggle and then just bend the pushrods sounds like the gear might me out of time and or damaged... I have seen these now twice do this... Also... How did they verify the head gasket was blown? Did they do a dye test on it or just decide it was blown? Dye test definition is the following: drain some coolant off slightly, use sniffer tool and insert into radiator and if blown when the exhaust reacts with dye in sniffer tool it will turn yellow... If it is an air cooled engine then a leak down test should be performed and engine should be listened to around base of cylinder head... If possible a smoke machine can be used as well... If smoke starts rolling out at the base of cylinder heads and or with rocker cover removed and oil filter removed the smoke rolls out of oil drain backs then a head gasket blown between the drain back galleries... If the smoke rolls out of the center where the oil filter is threaded on them the head gasket is blown between combustion chamber and the valve train lubrication galleries...

The other thing I've seen bend pushrods is when the guides start to walk out of the cylinder heads towards the valve string retainers...

 

OK, the new CVT drive belt arrived early. I managed to get the thing over the primary drive wheel (the secret being to stick a crowbar into the clutch and pry it forward to allow more clearance between the outer primary wheel and its protective plastic cover).

But, I'll be darned if I can get the blasted belt over the secondary drive wheel. I spent an hour, tugging, coaxing, trying levers. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. This belt has no stretch whatsoever, and is smooth on the outside, lacking the indentations on its outer surface, whatever those are called, that the OEM has. It tries to go on, and then slips off every time. I'm here in the house, cooling off & going to search the Internet to see if there's a trick I need to know about. Because, otherwise, this bloody thing simply - ain't - goin' - on...

 

I found this video on YouTube, where the guy (who's apparently from Mars, judging by his voice) removes the outer secondary drive wheel. Is that an option? I read about the spring force in these things being like 500 lb. Please advise!!!

Note how it doesn't squeal after he gets the belt on. But, check out the screenshot below. His belt is some other, NOT the UC29593 replacement suggested by JD, which is apparently 0.2" shorter than the original M176720 OEM.

 

The guy in this video uses a crowbar to pry the secondary apart, but I'm afraid of damaging the surface of the thing, and ending up creating more trouble than I started with !

 

It's a mute point... But the clutches on the Trail Bucks are so nice... You thread an all thread 8mmx1.25mm screw into the clutch pulley and spread it apart...

 

I've never had to pry the belt on before. Starting at the secondary, I try to rotate one of the sheeves causing it to open up with belt in position. Not easy but push the belt down into secondary while the secondary is open. Belt friction will help it open to some extent. Goal is to get belt down in secondary as far as possible before walking it over the primary.

My snowmobile secondary has a jackscrew that cause the secondary to fully open, making belt installation a snap since you are not fitting the secondary trying to close.

Prying could damage pulley surface.

 

 

Can't get the video to play. But prying is a no-no to me. No, not ever. Adding additional problems?

 

Well, I'm about at my wit's end. I'd like to open up the sheeves on the secondary, but the spring tension is so massive they don't want to move. And this new belt w solid outer surface is so stiff it won't bend the way the OEM belts do, with their grooved outer surface, so bending the belt down into the sheeve while rotating the sheeve just doesn't work. Maybe if I were 3x as strong. But, we're stuck.

And, I agree that prying is likely to permanently ruin the inner surface of the sheeve. I'd try removing that bolt that holds the secondary sheeve on (which requires jacking the back up & removing the left wheel. But, if the sheeve assembly is under any tension at all, then I'd never get it back on again.

I am not feeling good about any of this at all.